[of-dev] free VS2011 will be crippled

Elliot Woods elliot at kimchiandchips.com
Fri May 25 09:11:10 PDT 2012


Contentious:
Drop PG for VS
Keep VS libs, emptyExample (somewhere official at least)

Sent by touchscreen

On 25 May 2012, at 17:04, Theodore Watson <theo at openframeworks.cc> wrote:

> There are two questions.
> 1) What does the future of VS look like for OF ?  
> 2) Are there better alternatives to C::B ?
> 
> For us its not so much a matter of 'lets only do one IDE to make things easier'.
> Its more a matter of having people who know and use the IDEs to make rolling out 5-6 different project formats every release doable. 
> 
> In the past Zach was the one putting together the VS packages (even though he doesn't ever really use VS for projects). 
> So VS has been a real chore as its a whole bunch of other things to compile. compiler, linker issues etc. 
> 
> For 0071 we have had some much needed help from Elliot and Matthew. 
> I would say we could still benefit for an other 2-4 really expert Win users. 
> Having a team of people like that on the dev list and github will make questions like 'should we support VS' a non-issue.
> 
> So if anyone knows of good VS or Win people who use OF please invite them to join!
> 
> 
> On May 25, 2012, at 11:13 AM, Matthew Gingold wrote:
> 
>> I might amend my ‘My feeling is we should continue to support VS’ to ‘My feeling is we should continue to support VS’ for now...
>> 
>> We’d need to have a pretty clear road map to drop support for it is what I’m saying...and part of that is to understand which compiler to develop 64-bit on...
>> 
>> And I think we need to see what consumer/user/developer reactions to VS becoming non-free are – do others continue to support it? Will major users of OF stop using it if we do not support it? etc
>> 
>> 
>> On 25/05/12 5:10 PM, "W W" <m at gingold.com.au> wrote:
>> 
>>> @elliot: +1 for option 2 ;)
>>> 
>>> I think it’s good to look at the alternatives a bit...too – good to know what’s out there.
>>> 
>>> I think your list of problems with CB is pretty indicative of VS users -> although for me I find them not so much of a problem in comparison to the performance of my apps when compiled with cl...anyhoo
>>> 
>>> My feeling is we should continue to support VS.
>>> 
>>> @Theo: thanks for bringing up 64-bit -> I think it should be a priority on windows – it’s been causing me (and I know several other users) quite a bit of headache...Cecile here at Ars has done a little work on compiling oF libs for 64-bit under VS, and I’ve done some research into mingw64...it looks like a pain, but would be great to do....
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 25/05/12 4:48 PM, "Elliot Woods" <elliot at kimchiandchips.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> is the discussion 
>>>> 
>>>> 'what's the best windows IDE, let's make everyone use that'
>>>> Or is it
>>>> 'is VS worth supporting for the users who choose to use it'
>>>> 
>>>> -1 for option 1
>>>> 
>>>> Sent by touchscreen
>>>> 
>>>> On 25 May 2012, at 15:27, Pierre Proske <pierre at digitalstar.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Eclipse and netbeans come from Java development environments and therefore have a lot more focus on that...and therefore are a little bloated, even though Eclipse is very full featured.
>>>>>  
>>>>>  Regarding your comments Elliot, I think the debugging and error messages aren't that unfamiliar when you are used to gcc. 
>>>>>  I tend to use mostly open source libs I guess, so VS or CB is kind of irrelevant, its more Windows vs OSX vs Linux.
>>>>>  
>>>>>  Codelite looks good, but somehow I'm guessing it's not all that different from Codeblocks...
>>>>>  
>>>>>  On 26/05/12 00:03, Neil Mendoza wrote: 
>>>>>> +1 for Eclipse.  Lots of features, plugins and a huge user community.
>>>>>>  --
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> www.neilmendoza.com <http://www.neilmendoza.com>  <http://www.neilmendoza.com> 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> twitter.com/neilmendoza <http://twitter.com/neilmendoza>  <http://twitter.com/neilmendoza> 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> +44 7956 641 707
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> On 25 May 2012 14:41, Theodore Watson <theo at openframeworks.cc <mailto:theo at openframeworks.cc> > wrote:
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> C::B is def not perfect.
>>>>>>>  some possible c::b alternatives which might be good to look at?
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>  Netbeans: http://netbeans.org/features/cpp/index.html <http://netbeans.org/features/cpp/index.html> 
>>>>>>>  Codelite: http://www.codelite.org/ <http://www.codelite.org/>  & http://sourceforge.net/projects/codelite/ <http://sourceforge.net/projects/codelite/> 
>>>>>>>  or eclipse??
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>  all updated regularly.
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>  One thing about the free VS edition is it doesn't support 64bit - which would be key when OF finally moves to 64bit.
>>>>>>>  So that would be another problem down the road despite the new announcement.
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  On May 25, 2012, at 9:08 AM, Elliot Woods wrote:
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>  > No good themes
>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>  > Debugging takes a different strategy to VS as different tools available.
>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>  > VS is the standard for windows c++ dev so binary libs on the net are commonly for vs and not gcc. E.g. Is there a gcc lib for kinect SDK?
>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>  > I found that error messages are often non descriptive (runtime crashes, compiler/linker errors).
>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>  > The interface is clunky/ugly (personal opinion of course) and the folder management doesnt sit well with me.
>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>  > I love 'pin to source' watches in VS
>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>  > VS has a much bigger community (this might change!) which makes tracking down issues and learning more fun / better resourced.
>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>  > I love the idea of a 1:1 windows:posix development though.
>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>  > Hooray for free IDE's that volunteers have sweated over, that's a huge win.
>>>>>>>  > VS is my favourite though :(
>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>  > Elliot
>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>  > Sent by touchscreen
>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>  > On 25 May 2012, at 12:27, Pierre Proske <pierre at digitalstar.net <mailto:pierre at digitalstar.net> > wrote:
>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>  >> Just curious Elliot,
>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>  >> What is it that you dislike so much about Codeblocks?
>>>>>>>  >> I've used VS extensively, in fact I'm using it for a project at the moment and to be honest I do like some the autocompletion features and the debugger, but I don't feel any great pain going over to CB.
>>>>>>>  >> CB is much simpler and cleaner in comparison to VS and XCode. You rarely have to spend hours wrangling with weird preferences and hidden options to get things going ( both of which I've had to do with the previous two on the admittedly rare but very frustrating occasion).
>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>  >> Photoshop vs Gimp is a whole other argument.
>>>>>>>  >> Photoshop is definitely superior to Gimp, hands down. But 95% of the time I'm using Photoshop for something Gimp would do just as easily. And Gimp loads way faster than photoshop.
>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>  >> Not trying to start a debate, just like to hear your opinion.
>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>  >> p.
>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>  >> For beginners I would say its preferable.
>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>  >> On 25/05/12 19:46, Elliot Woods wrote:
>>>>>>>  >>> Dropping support for VS11-free is inevitable as it doesn't support OpenGL
>>>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>>>  >>> VS11 standard is $500
>>>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>>>  >>> Code::Blocks is ... sigh. Depressing
>>>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>>>  >>> I think more likely the changes to the windows c++ community caused by this decision will likely affect the ecosystem of free IDE's. Hopefully tothe point of viable alternatives. I just don't feel like trading in Photoshop for gimp :( yet.
>>>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>>>  >>> Elliot
>>>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>>>  >>> Sent by touchscreen
>>>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>>>  >>> On 25 May 2012, at 09:57, Christoph Buchner<bilderbuchi at phononoia.at <mailto:bilderbuchi at phononoia.at> >  wrote:
>>>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>>>  >>>> I think what it means in any case is that we should make sure that developing with free IDEs (e.g. Codeblocks, Eclipse) on Windows is fully supported in OF, so that people who don't want to shell out 500$ for an IDE are not impeded, i.e. there's no _need_ to get VS11 to be able to use OF to its full potential.
>>>>>>>  >>>> In light of this, I think it's important to think about how to handle things like C++11 features, which apparently will not be available in the VS11 free edition: If we don't want to hold back the rest of OF (on all other OSes) because we can't use these features with VS11-free, what remains exept dropping support for VS11-free, and offering proper alternatives?
>>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>>>  >>>> greets,
>>>>>>>  >>>> christoph
>>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>>>  >>>> On Fri 25 May 2012 10:33:46 AM CEST, Elliot Woods wrote:
>>>>>>>  >>>>> Hmm... Let's see how this works out
>>>>>>>  >>>>> I think we should drop VS if people stop using it, not because we think people might.
>>>>>>>  >>>>>
>>>>>>>  >>>>> Or is this in protest for free software?
>>>>>>>  >>>>>
>>>>>>>  >>>>> Apple computers cost considerably more than PC's, blah blah.
>>>>>>>  >>>>>
>>>>>>>  >>>>> Cash ain't no king
>>>>>>>  >>>>> Elliot
>>>>>>>  >>>>>
>>>>>>>  >>>>> Sent by touchscreen
>>>>>>>  >>>>>
>>>>>>>  >>>>> On 25 May 2012, at 06:06, Joshua Noble<joshuajnoble at gmail.com <mailto:joshuajnoble at gmail.com> >   wrote:
>>>>>>>  >>>>>
>>>>>>>  >>>>>> This is baffling and making me a bit sad as I really like Visual
>>>>>>>  >>>>>> Studio as a development IDE. Sigh.
>>>>>>>  >>>>>>
>>>>>>>  >>>>>> On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 9:36 PM, Kyle McDonald<kyle at kylemcdonald.net <mailto:kyle at kylemcdonald.net> >   wrote:
>>>>>>>  >>>>>>> one minor clarification: the product in question "visual studio 11" not "visual studio 2011" :)
>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  >>>>>>> On Friday, May 25, 2012 at 12:29 AM, Kyle McDonald wrote:
>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>> this story has been evolving today:
>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/05/no-cost-desktop-software-development-is-dead-on-windows-8/ <http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/05/no-cost-desktop-software-development-is-dead-on-windows-8/> 
>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>> but here's the original post from last week:
>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>> https://blogs.msdn.com/b/visualstudio/archive/2012/05/18/a-look-ahead-at-the-visual-studio-11-product-lineup-and-platform-support.aspx <https://blogs.msdn.com/b/visualstudio/archive/2012/05/18/a-look-ahead-at-the-visual-studio-11-product-lineup-and-platform-support.aspx> 
>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>> the idea is that microsoft wants developers to focus on creating windows 8 "metro" apps, which is a sort of "limited" app that can be deployed both on the desktop and the windows phone, and can be sold in microsoft's app store (metro doesn't support opengl, so no OF+metro). they're going to make the free version of visual studio only support metro app development, whereas the real deal will be $500.
>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>> VS2010 should still work for a bit, but if microsoft doesn't change their mind about this it makes me think we should drop support for VS, and focus on mingw + c::b on windows.
>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>> kyle
>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>  >>>>>>
>>>>>>>  >>>>>>
>>>>>>>  >>>>>> --
>>>>>>>  >>>>>> joshua noble
>>>>>>>  >>>>>> http://thefactoryfactory.com <http://thefactoryfactory.com> 
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>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>   
>>>>>>  
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>>>>>>  
>>>>> 
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