[of-dev] free VS2011 will be crippled

Matthew Gingold m at gingold.com.au
Fri May 25 08:13:51 PDT 2012


I might amend my ŒMy feeling is we should continue to support VS¹ to ŒMy
feeling is we should continue to support VS¹ for now...

We¹d need to have a pretty clear road map to drop support for it is what I¹m
saying...and part of that is to understand which compiler to develop 64-bit
on...

And I think we need to see what consumer/user/developer reactions to VS
becoming non-free are ­ do others continue to support it? Will major users
of OF stop using it if we do not support it? etc


On 25/05/12 5:10 PM, "W W" <m at gingold.com.au> wrote:

> @elliot: +1 for option 2 ;)
> 
> I think it¹s good to look at the alternatives a bit...too ­ good to know
> what¹s out there.
> 
> I think your list of problems with CB is pretty indicative of VS users ->
> although for me I find them not so much of a problem in comparison to the
> performance of my apps when compiled with cl...anyhoo
> 
> My feeling is we should continue to support VS.
> 
> @Theo: thanks for bringing up 64-bit -> I think it should be a priority on
> windows ­ it¹s been causing me (and I know several other users) quite a bit of
> headache...Cecile here at Ars has done a little work on compiling oF libs for
> 64-bit under VS, and I¹ve done some research into mingw64...it looks like a
> pain, but would be great to do....
> 
> 
> On 25/05/12 4:48 PM, "Elliot Woods" <elliot at kimchiandchips.com> wrote:
> 
>>  is the discussion
>> 
>> 'what's the best windows IDE, let's make everyone use that'
>> Or is it
>> 'is VS worth supporting for the users who choose to use it'
>> 
>> -1 for option 1
>> 
>> Sent by touchscreen
>> 
>> On 25 May 2012, at 15:27, Pierre Proske <pierre at digitalstar.net> wrote:
>> 
>>>  Eclipse and netbeans come from Java development environments and therefore
>>> have a lot more focus on that...and therefore are a little bloated, even
>>> though Eclipse is very full featured.
>>>  
>>>  Regarding your comments Elliot, I think the debugging and error messages
>>> aren't that unfamiliar when you are used to gcc.
>>>  I tend to use mostly open source libs I guess, so VS or CB is kind of
>>> irrelevant, its more Windows vs OSX vs Linux.
>>>  
>>>  Codelite looks good, but somehow I'm guessing it's not all that different
>>> from Codeblocks...
>>>  
>>>  On 26/05/12 00:03, Neil Mendoza wrote:
>>>> +1 for Eclipse.  Lots of features, plugins and a huge user community.
>>>>  --
>>>>  
>>>> www.neilmendoza.com <http://www.neilmendoza.com>
>>>> <http://www.neilmendoza.com>
>>>>  
>>>> twitter.com/neilmendoza <http://twitter.com/neilmendoza>
>>>> <http://twitter.com/neilmendoza>
>>>>  
>>>> +44 7956 641 707
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> On 25 May 2012 14:41, Theodore Watson <theo at openframeworks.cc
>>>> <mailto:theo at openframeworks.cc> > wrote:
>>>>  
>>>>>  C::B is def not perfect.
>>>>>  some possible c::b alternatives which might be good to look at?
>>>>>  
>>>>>  Netbeans: http://netbeans.org/features/cpp/index.html
>>>>> <http://netbeans.org/features/cpp/index.html>
>>>>>  Codelite: http://www.codelite.org/ <http://www.codelite.org/>  &
>>>>> http://sourceforge.net/projects/codelite/
>>>>> <http://sourceforge.net/projects/codelite/>
>>>>>  or eclipse??
>>>>>  
>>>>>  all updated regularly.
>>>>>  
>>>>>  One thing about the free VS edition is it doesn't support 64bit - which
>>>>> would be key when OF finally moves to 64bit.
>>>>>  So that would be another problem down the road despite the new
>>>>> announcement.
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>>  On May 25, 2012, at 9:08 AM, Elliot Woods wrote:
>>>>>  
>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>  > No good themes
>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>  > Debugging takes a different strategy to VS as different tools
>>>>>> available.
>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>  > VS is the standard for windows c++ dev so binary libs on the net are
>>>>>> commonly for vs and not gcc. E.g. Is there a gcc lib for kinect SDK?
>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>  > I found that error messages are often non descriptive (runtime
>>>>>> crashes, compiler/linker errors).
>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>  > The interface is clunky/ugly (personal opinion of course) and the
>>>>>> folder management doesnt sit well with me.
>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>  > I love 'pin to source' watches in VS
>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>  > VS has a much bigger community (this might change!) which makes
>>>>>> tracking down issues and learning more fun / better resourced.
>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>  > I love the idea of a 1:1 windows:posix development though.
>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>  > Hooray for free IDE's that volunteers have sweated over, that's a huge
>>>>>> win.
>>>>>>  > VS is my favourite though :(
>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>  > Elliot
>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>  > Sent by touchscreen
>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>  > On 25 May 2012, at 12:27, Pierre Proske <pierre at digitalstar.net
>>>>>> <mailto:pierre at digitalstar.net> > wrote:
>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>  >> Just curious Elliot,
>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>  >> What is it that you dislike so much about Codeblocks?
>>>>>>>  >> I've used VS extensively, in fact I'm using it for a project at the
>>>>>>> moment and to be honest I do like some the autocompletion features and
>>>>>>> the debugger, but I don't feel any great pain going over to CB.
>>>>>>>  >> CB is much simpler and cleaner in comparison to VS and XCode. You
>>>>>>> rarely have to spend hours wrangling with weird preferences and hidden
>>>>>>> options to get things going ( both of which I've had to do with the
>>>>>>> previous two on the admittedly rare but very frustrating occasion).
>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>  >> Photoshop vs Gimp is a whole other argument.
>>>>>>>  >> Photoshop is definitely superior to Gimp, hands down. But 95% of the
>>>>>>> time I'm using Photoshop for something Gimp would do just as easily. And
>>>>>>> Gimp loads way faster than photoshop.
>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>  >> Not trying to start a debate, just like to hear your opinion.
>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>  >> p.
>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>  >> For beginners I would say its preferable.
>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>  >> On 25/05/12 19:46, Elliot Woods wrote:
>>>>>>>>  >>> Dropping support for VS11-free is inevitable as it doesn't support
>>>>>>>> OpenGL
>>>>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>>>>  >>> VS11 standard is $500
>>>>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>>>>  >>> Code::Blocks is ... sigh. Depressing
>>>>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>>>>  >>> I think more likely the changes to the windows c++ community
>>>>>>>> caused by this decision will likely affect the ecosystem of free IDE's.
>>>>>>>> Hopefully tothe point of viable alternatives. I just don't feel like
>>>>>>>> trading in Photoshop for gimp :( yet.
>>>>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>>>>  >>> Elliot
>>>>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>>>>  >>> Sent by touchscreen
>>>>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>>>>  >>> On 25 May 2012, at 09:57, Christoph
>>>>>>>> Buchner<bilderbuchi at phononoia.at <mailto:bilderbuchi at phononoia.at> >
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>>> I think what it means in any case is that we should make sure
>>>>>>>>> that developing with free IDEs (e.g. Codeblocks, Eclipse) on Windows
>>>>>>>>> is fully supported in OF, so that people who don't want to shell out
>>>>>>>>> 500$ for an IDE are not impeded, i.e. there's no _need_ to get VS11 to
>>>>>>>>> be able to use OF to its full potential.
>>>>>>>>>  >>>> In light of this, I think it's important to think about how to
>>>>>>>>> handle things like C++11 features, which apparently will not be
>>>>>>>>> available in the VS11 free edition: If we don't want to hold back the
>>>>>>>>> rest of OF (on all other OSes) because we can't use these features
>>>>>>>>> with VS11-free, what remains exept dropping support for VS11-free, and
>>>>>>>>> offering proper alternatives?
>>>>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>>> greets,
>>>>>>>>>  >>>> christoph
>>>>>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>>>>>  >>>> On Fri 25 May 2012 10:33:46 AM CEST, Elliot Woods wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>> Hmm... Let's see how this works out
>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>> I think we should drop VS if people stop using it, not because
>>>>>>>>>> we think people might.
>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>> Or is this in protest for free software?
>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>> Apple computers cost considerably more than PC's, blah blah.
>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>> Cash ain't no king
>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>> Elliot
>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>> Sent by touchscreen
>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>> On 25 May 2012, at 06:06, Joshua Noble<joshuajnoble at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:joshuajnoble at gmail.com> >   wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>> This is baffling and making me a bit sad as I really like
Visual
>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>> Studio as a development IDE. Sigh.
>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>> On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 9:36 PM, Kyle
>>>>>>>>>>> McDonald<kyle at kylemcdonald.net <mailto:kyle at kylemcdonald.net> >
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>> one minor clarification: the product in question "visual
>>>>>>>>>>>> studio 11" not "visual studio 2011" :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>> On Friday, May 25, 2012 at 12:29 AM, Kyle McDonald wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>> this story has been evolving today:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/05/no-cost-desk
>>>>>>>>>>>>> top-software-development-is-dead-on-windows-8/
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/05/no-cost-des
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ktop-software-development-is-dead-on-windows-8/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>> but here's the original post from last week:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://blogs.msdn.com/b/visualstudio/archive/2012/05/18/a-look-ah
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ead-at-the-visual-studio-11-product-lineup-and-platform-support.as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> px 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://blogs.msdn.com/b/visualstudio/archive/2012/05/18/a-look-a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
head-at-the-visual-studio-11-product-lineup-and-platform-support.aspx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>> the idea is that microsoft wants developers to focus on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> creating windows 8 "metro" apps, which is a sort of "limited" app
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that can be deployed both on the desktop and the windows phone,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and can be sold in microsoft's app store (metro doesn't support
>>>>>>>>>>>>> opengl, so no OF+metro). they're going to make the free version of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> visual studio only support metro app development, whereas the real
>>>>>>>>>>>>> deal will be $500.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>> VS2010 should still work for a bit, but if microsoft
>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't change their mind about this it makes me think we should
>>>>>>>>>>>>> drop support for VS, and focus on mingw + c::b on windows.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>> kyle
>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>> of-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>> of-dev at dev.openframeworks.cc
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:of-dev at dev.openframeworks.cc>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://dev.openframeworks.cc/listinfo.cgi/of-dev-openframeworks.cc
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
<http://dev.openframeworks.cc/listinfo.cgi/of-dev-openframeworks.cc>
>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>> joshua noble
>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>> http://thefactoryfactory.com <http://thefactoryfactory.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>> of-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>> of-dev at dev.openframeworks.cc
>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:of-dev at dev.openframeworks.cc>
>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://dev.openframeworks.cc/listinfo.cgi/of-dev-openframeworks.cc
>>>>>>>>>>> <http://dev.openframeworks.cc/listinfo.cgi/of-dev-openframeworks.cc>
>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>> of-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>> of-dev at dev.openframeworks.cc
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:of-dev at dev.openframeworks.cc>
>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> http://dev.openframeworks.cc/listinfo.cgi/of-dev-openframeworks.cc
>>>>>>>>>> <http://dev.openframeworks.cc/listinfo.cgi/of-dev-openframeworks.cc>
>>>>>>>>  >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>  >>> of-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>  >>> of-dev at dev.openframeworks.cc <mailto:of-dev at dev.openframeworks.cc>
>>>>>>>>  >>> http://dev.openframeworks.cc/listinfo.cgi/of-dev-openframeworks.cc
>>>>>>>> <http://dev.openframeworks.cc/listinfo.cgi/of-dev-openframeworks.cc>
>>>>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>  > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>  > of-dev mailing list
>>>>>>  > of-dev at dev.openframeworks.cc <mailto:of-dev at dev.openframeworks.cc>
>>>>>>  > http://dev.openframeworks.cc/listinfo.cgi/of-dev-openframeworks.cc
>>>>>> <http://dev.openframeworks.cc/listinfo.cgi/of-dev-openframeworks.cc>
>>>>>  
>>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>>  of-dev mailing list
>>>>>  of-dev at dev.openframeworks.cc <mailto:of-dev at dev.openframeworks.cc>
>>>>>  http://dev.openframeworks.cc/listinfo.cgi/of-dev-openframeworks.cc
>>>>> <http://dev.openframeworks.cc/listinfo.cgi/of-dev-openframeworks.cc>
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>   
>>>>  
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> of-dev mailing list
>>>> of-dev at dev.openframeworks.cc <mailto:of-dev at dev.openframeworks.cc>
>>>> http://dev.openframeworks.cc/listinfo.cgi/of-dev-openframeworks.cc
>>>> <http://dev.openframeworks.cc/listinfo.cgi/of-dev-openframeworks.cc>
>>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> of-dev mailing list
>>> of-dev at dev.openframeworks.cc
>>> http://dev.openframeworks.cc/listinfo.cgi/of-dev-openframeworks.cc
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> of-dev mailing list
>> of-dev at dev.openframeworks.cc
>> http://dev.openframeworks.cc/listinfo.cgi/of-dev-openframeworks.cc
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> of-dev mailing list
> of-dev at dev.openframeworks.cc
> http://dev.openframeworks.cc/listinfo.cgi/of-dev-openframeworks.cc

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://dev.openframeworks.cc/pipermail/of-dev-openframeworks.cc/attachments/20120525/ce738df5/attachment-0003.htm>


More information about the of-dev mailing list